Neurogenic, what does it mean

[sean]

I'm looking for a definition of the term neurogenic.
Neuro? brain, genic? genes put them together and they mean????

I've just always wondered how 'neurogenic' explains the behaviour of my bladder and bowel. (if anything it's too damn polite LOL).
can you help, thanks.

[dahliafaolan]

As far as I've always understood, neurogenic means that there's something wrong with a particular nerve that causes a muscle to spasm. At least that's how I've understood it.

[Lifeisgood]

It just means that a problem with the nerves is the root of the issue. For some people it can cause spasms, others flacidity.

neu·ro·gen·ic
adj.
1. Originating in the nerves or nervous tissue: a neurogenic tumor.
2. Caused or affected by the nerves or nervous system: neurogenic disorders.

[sean]

thankyou!
that feels very significant to me! I feel a rant in my belly a flush in my face.
Am I just being woe is me, precious in my self!
But a neurogenic bladder can, now I suspect, anything from fully flacid too fully spastic.
(very aware of the use of 'spastic' when reffering to people, don't know if it has any place PC wise). It has always been 'to me' the perfect way to describe the behaviour of my bladder and bowel. My definition something like, involuntary spazmodic action, OTT, vibration, flicks and whips, from affected nerves?????.
Always been hesitant to use the word.
I have never felt that neurogenic bladder and bowel explains much about my bladder and bowel. Damn it! my bladder and bowel are "all" spastic to ME!
What I'm whinging about is had my neurogenic bladder and bowel been identified and treated as ???? a 10/10 spastic type of neurogenic. "I" would have/would feel better, diagnosis, treatment, understanding, options, better understood.
I don't know I'm just going off ???? Don't know is there significant difference between the affect of a spastic and flacid neurogenic bladder. I'm thinking flacid may be more managable routine and timing wise. Where as mine of the spasm kind are the root of my pointless madening effort to control them.
DAMN! Had the whole bladder augmentation thing, surgery was being offered, I was in a bad way at the time obviously not understanding, I clearly remember the word 'flacid' floating around, it put me off. DAMN it flacid in my case would be a good thing.
I feel such a fool. excuse me

[sean]

Yes excuse me just going off!!! But hey do I have a point? is there significant enough difference between a flacid neurogenic bladder, treatment/management and a ?spasm prone neurogenic bladder, treatment/management for it to be ? expressed /noted.
Sure neurogenic as a generalisation, but I'd like health professionals to recognise the difference (if).
I had the chance to put my spastic con joined twins down, well flacid anyway, many years ago, had I only understood at the time. Bugger!

[Gymp]

Hmmmm....All I was ever told in my entire life was that I have a "flaccid bladder" and a "neurogenic sphincter muscle".What that exactly means,I'm not sure!

Gymp

[LisaJoy]

Neurogenic just means that the problem originates in the nerves -- neuro = nerves, genic = origin (like genesis, generate, genealogy, etc.).

Flaccid bladders leak urine continuously; spastic bladders eliminate spontaneously. Both obviously have their drawbacks from lifestyle point of view.

From a clinical point of view there's an important difference. Flaccid bladders have low pressure (I think) and are not usually accompanied by reflux to the kidneys. Although they still tend towards infection because they rarely empty all the way. Spastic bladders store urine at high pressure and can result in reflux of urine back to the kidneys, which can cause kidney damage.

Ditropan and other meds are designed to control spasms but also to reduce the pressure at which urine is stored and prevent reflux.

[sean]

There you go! Here I am with a moderate case of Hydronefrosis/reflux a spastic bladder for 51yrs and "I" am going to ask my doctor on friday about Ditropan and other meds.
Have I been invisible or what!
Thanks Lisa.

[sean]

A second opinion and ultra sound says I do not have hydronefrosis. My kidneys are slightly dilated, a mild case of reflux. Slightly enlarged prostate (normal with age).
What do you do, a third opinion!, do I choose? hydronefrosis or mild reflux, mild reflux thanks.
My full bladder??? holds 380ml, I managed to push out 340ml. 40ml residual???OK.
If I could tie my penis in a knot to prevent leakage, lol, and was perfectly still I think my bladder could stretch to 450ml and I think if was at home (comfort zone) there'd be even less residual.
I can be a whinger/victim. I think the depressed me is determind to keep me the victim.
I have absolutely no-one to blame but myself. I chose this path of isolation, long term it becomes ignorance.
I am now taking Ditropan, a med I probably should have been taking since the undiversion and reawakening of neurogenic bladder 15/20yrs ago.
How or why??? I think of the many visits to urologists, GP's, SB nurses, continence nurses over the years, me crying out spastic. No mention of anti spasm meds???????
Maybe I refused to hear??, my last surgeries brought out the defensive victim in me.
Foreward I go.
I've only been taking Ditropan for a few days, I think it may take time (weeks) for it to take full effect.
Don't know if it's related but, diarrhoea (not as usual) and my mouth and sinuses are dry as, my nose is not running when holding or grooming my rabbit, bargain!

In the future I am going to be making it understood more clearly that my neurogenic bladder and bowel are of the spastic kind, not flaccid (with two c's thanks)
What do I do, shout it, get them to repeat it so I know they've heard me, write spastic neurogenic bladder across my forehead, slap them around a bit, wake them up. LOL.
It's up to me! Thanks.

[LisaJoy]

Sean,

First of all, good news about no hydronephrosis.

Are you taking the extended release version of Ditropan (Ditropan XL)? I've read that it has milder side effects than the regular kind. I take the extended release version (10 mg) and have some issues with dry mouth and throat, but they're pretty mild.

It takes a few weeks for it to starting working fully.

I'm surprised by the diarrhea -- Ditropan and other drugs in that class usually cause constipation. Perhaps you've picked up a little bug and it is just a coincidence. Or it could be that it is just because you've added something new to your system and it will take a little time to adjust. I would give it a few weeks and see if things level out. Over-the-counter anti-diarrheals and allergy meds might help with those symptoms in the meantime.

Meds like Ditropan have been around since the mid 80s, I think, and I, like you, was never offered them for my neurogenic bladder. I SO wish that I had started taking the meds and catheterizing years ago, because my quality of life improved greatly once I started in 2002. But I didn't even know to ask for anything -- I never even saw a urologist because I didn't ever get infections and didn't realize there was anything out there to help my bladder control problems.

Lisa

[dahliafaolan]

Dear Sean,
Yes, the dry mouth and sinuses can definitely be a side effect of the Ditropan. I've lived with dry mouth since I started taking the Ditropan. (Not such a bad side effect since it causes me to drink constantly!) I also get chapped lips that no amount of chapstick helps for long. But some of the worst for me has been the dry sinuses. When I was young, my sinuses would get so dried out sometimes during the night that I would end up having nosebleeds (I've woken up the next morning with a bloody pillow.). But thankfully, now that I'm older, I don't have them any more if I'm careful. Though I do have to be careful with the antihistamines I take. If they're too strong, I end up back with bloody noses. Just make sure you're careful if you live in a dry place, it makes the sinus issues worse. Especially if it's a place with a lot of sand or dust.

[Lifeisgood]

Has anyone been placed on a alpha-blocker for their bladder issues? My dotor is going to start me on one next week (not sure what one yet) and I am curious as to how it went. Thanks!

[sean]

Lisa, thanks, I'm taking 5ml 3x daily. I'm working on the 3x daily, I'm so used to taking all my meds at once in the morning. I will be asking for Ditropan XL, thanks!!! one 10ml sounds good, 5ml 3x daily maybe a good start/maybe not. I'll get it sorted.
Dry mouth and sinuses, I live in a fairly humid climate a+, and the need to drink more a+
If my mild drippy nose from rabbit fur dries up a+, I feel like I'm probably snoring my face off, living alone a+. If I can give my bladder a rest (RIP) it might give me a rest A+!!!
it's all good. sean.

[Gymp]

Sean,
It's good things are looking up for you.Do me a favor and let me know how this ditropan works out for you cause I'm curious if it'd work for me.Up to now you dribble all the time,yes????

Thanks
Gymp

[sean]

Yep pretty much a constant dribble to a full on stream.
The stream I know is happening, when its happening as the bag fills (same with my bowel, if I have that feeling I need to go, it's too late) In the shower I see myself having a full on wee, I feel nothing.
Other times I think I feel everything??? as it's happening, a slight sting and, I don't know if I'm feeling it or visualising really well LOL, flow through my urethra.
Dribble flow, doesn't matter wearing a bag (bless it).
I have had countless UTI's over the years, the last one took me to hospital emergency. I thought a repeat of kidney stones I was in so much pain. I suspect reflux has been going on a long time (depressed me likes to wallow in a bit of pain and discomfort, it seems) I have neglected myself!!!!

I do believe being part of this group has inspired me to take better care of myself.
I can't preach unless I practice what I preach.
Got a pretty good idea of what is right for me, just didn't care, worthless. I know that's not right too.
I hear myself saying, as I have many times to doctors, I believe my bladder is adhered to my bowel since the undiversion (dormant bladder 20yrs to functioning bladder)
I've been thinking adhesions, the surgery went so wrong, why not.
Now I'm understanding (accepting) I have a neurogenic bladder and bowel!!!! this is what they do!!!! You see my spastic con-joined evil twins work together, if one is going off the other wants to aswell, that's how they are, a team.
If I'm out and about and feel my bag filling I'm thinking bowel/toilet quick.
If I fart my bladder reacts, I would never! stand and push to empty my bladder, it's an all together sitting thing.
Something I wouldn't even bother mentioning to a doctor, a quirky thing.
My bladder and bowel are particularly sensitive to even slight changes in altitude.
whether I'm walking up a hill or driving sitting comfortably, same reaction, lifts, escelators, my B&B want to stay on the ground at sea level. A short bus ride from town feels like a rollercoaster, but not fun, every part of me is clenched.
I think I'm grasping at staws trying to know my B&B or find some control, after all these years they never cease to surprise me.
I am hopeing for some flaccid calm down under. Ditropan takes a few weeks to settle in, and I may be changing the dose. I'll let you know how it is. sean.

[Gymp]

Yeah,I'm a tad different,I do dribble 24/7 but it never full streams out on its own.The only times it does is when I'm at the toilet and I'm pushing,then yep full stream ahead.The other time it streams out is when I'm lifting something heavy,ya know when you're grunting it up,then again at that time I'm pushing on all my muscles while lifting.Same happens for pooper,I've gotta push to get it out,contracting all the stomach muscles.If I'm lifting something heavy yep,I can do a poo too,mind you the pooper don't dribble.I'm kinda lucky with the pooper cause I basically go twice a day,once in morning and once after my nana nap and rarely do I have accidents.This is in all probability because of the codeine I take for my back.I semi constipated all the time but go on a regular basis,in essence the codeine works well killing two birds with one stone so to speak.

I hope the ditropan works for you Sean,we all need some peace and not be worried all the time about a damn toilet.Keep me posted,thanks.

Gymp